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Fired skipper fires back

The following is a partial transcript from a telephone interview with retired Cmdr. John Pinckney, former commanding officer of the destroyer Halsey, conducted on Oct. 23 by staff writer Andrew Scutro. Scutro interviewed Pinckney several times throughout the week of Oct. 21, but the Oct. 23 interview was the primary exchange.

The transcript has been edited for clarity and some personal references to officers and crewmembers have been removed. Exchanges that were off-topic or redundant were also deleted.

Off the bat, anything you want to express?

The person that was expressed in that article is not me. That is not the person that I am. You made it seem in the article like there were a couple of kegs on the fantail and the crew was invited back there to come and drink and people drank and had a good time and got wasted like it was a college party and that wasn’t it at all.

I felt like I was slighted. Like I was damned. It sounded like an article that was written to sell papers.

I didn’t give anyone permission to use my picture. I’m retired. Here’s this thing about the ship. This happened almost a year ago. I’ve been out the Navy now for a few months and then wham all of a sudden, all this stuff comes up. It’s just, it’s just disheartening.

In whatever reports you got, there was never any of those statements were verified. Who was drinking? Where did they get the alcohol? Who gave them the alcohol? It’s easy for me to say “hey this person is drunk” or “that person has alcohol on his breath.” OK if I am an investigator and I am doing this independently, I should find out who this person is talking about. That’s where I am coming from.

Well, just this one example, you say “who did the alcohol come from?” One of the statements is from one of the people who was on the flight deck who said you went up to your cabin and got a couple bottles of sake and then brought it back and split it open with the crew.

What happened is one of the Japanese officers, a colonel, and his attaché, we went up to the cabin to exchange gifts. He gave me two bottles of sake. When he left, I brought those down and I said “hey, you guys can take this.” I gave it to the folks serving. It wasn’t a free-for-all. There were two first class petty officers and a third class petty officer that were serving alcohol. You could not just grab something.

OK.

So it’s not like I went out and bought this and had it in my room and came down and said “hey open up your glasses and let me pour this for you.” That wasn’t it at all.

What was the alcohol policy on Halsey for distinguished visitors and receptions like this?

I worked with the senior culinary specialist and the supply officer. We came up with a plan on how we’d do this. We had servers that were in the supply department and we had senior guys that were going to distribute the alcohol.

We went out to the strike group and got permission to have the reception. We got the beer and the wine and stuff we were going to serve there. We had a Japanese liaison who helped us with what were the appropriate things to serve. We had an ice statue, etc.

So when people would come on board…

Japanese people?

… Japanese people or people on the crew that were part of the reception, we had a separate brow. The aft end of the ship was sectioned off. We had a brow on the aft end of the ship and a brow amidship. The aft end brow was only to be used by the people at the reception. The forward brow was to be used for normal ship’s traffic so there was to be no interaction with the crew and the folks having the reception.

Gotcha.

We had sideboys for the dignitaries and etc. and we had the reception. And what happened early on and what normally happens is the chief petty officers kind of congregated together and the officers kind of congregated together and as the Japanese were coming on they were kind of congregating together.

So I walked around and talked to folks and said “hey, let’s mingle. If you guys want to have a beverage that’s fine. Let’s go ahead and make this a nice reception.”

The one person that you mention … I purposefully went to her because she was having difficulty during the deployment. So I engaged her. I said “Hey, have a good time, you know. Have a drink, you know. We’re going to work everything out. We’ve got plenty of time.” And she was with [another] officer. And the officer was there the whole time I engaged her. She’s a female also. I went back and saw her later and told her the same thing and she said “no, dah dah dah, dah dah dah.” So I left it at that. But I was going around engaging people, trying to get people to mingle and everything.

There was no instance where alcohol was left alone and you could just go up and grab a beverage. There were people distributing that. And those people knew it was for people at the reception and those not in a duty status. There was nothing like someone comes off liberty and says “Hey I’d like something to eat. Or I’d like to have a drink or so.” There was none of that. It was separated.

Was either officer on duty?

I heard [one] said she was on duty. Our policy was we have multiple CDOs in a section and only two of those will stand watch. The other CDOs are free. That allowed us to qualify more of the younger guys, to bring them up.

So my direction was I wanted people out there who were not in a duty status so you would not have any of this, “Is this person on duty? Is this person not on duty? Should this person be drinking? Should this person not be drinking?” I wanted people who were going to be out there who could enjoy the reception and then we’d be done with it.

So the policy then is with alcohol and DVs is ...

There is no alcohol on the ship unless it’s an official function. And if there is an official function only authorized people are allowed to drink. Everybody knows that on the ship from an E-1 to the captain. Everybody knows that on the ship. That is a Navy-wide policy throughout the Navy. If you stop a sailor and you ask a sailor “If you are on duty are you allowed to drink?” His answer is going to be “no.” If someone does they are willfully breaking the law.

But in the case you’d just back into port as I think you’ve mentioned ...

There is no exception. That is the law… .The people who were there were not junior people. We’re not talking about seamen and firemen that were there. We are talking about officers and chief petty officers. Except for the sideboys.

So how many people would you say were drinking?

It’s hard to give a rough number but I could say there were about 25 to 30 people on list to be at the reception.

So once the Japanese DVs were off the ship, did more of the crew join the party?

No, it was only the folks who were serving and the folks who were at the reception. That is it.

So you’re saying it was only 30 people and it was only these senior folks and the people who were invited? How many sailors were on shore liberty? How many sailors would you say were on the ship that night?

There was one duty section on the ship. Probably, I would say, 25 to maybe 30 percent of the people were on the ship.

So about 30 percent of your crew was there?

About 25 to 30 percent.

Where was everybody else?

They had liberty.

So if the party was controlled the way you say it was, there’s a statement from an officer who comes out into a passageway and a sailor is walking by with a beer in his hand. How would that have happened?

That shouldn’t have happened. That officer should have taken that beer from that sailor, he should have taken that sailor to the master-at-arms or to the section leader or to the CDO. There is no way someone should have been transiting the ship with a beer in their hand.

So the rule was no alcohol inside the skin of the ship?

Exactly. The reception was not inside the skin of the ship, it was on the flight deck. You have to walk through the helo hangars and into a p-way. And even if someone did do that, who was that person, who stopped him and who did he report it to?

I don’t know. It’s in the report but none of these people are named.

In the final report there was no one identified as drinking but there are all these accusations that they smelled liquor or when the master-at-arms said the mess decks smelled like a brewery. Who was drinking? At the end of the duty day the master at arms is required to file a report. That was not in his report.

That it smelled like a brewery?

That it smelled like a brewery or that he suspected someone of drinking.

But he’s not the only who got to the mess decks during the fire. People were having trouble getting into their gear. There were multiple people who said that.

And look at the report. There was no report of that. When the CDOs turn over, they both come to the commanding officer and they turn over what they have. The section leader sends a report. The medical guy sends a report and none of that was there.

Also on the flight deck was the executive officer and the command master chief. And none of them gave a report or came and said “Hey, we have a problem here.”

You are saying the CMC and the XO were also on the flight deck but they didn’t do what? They didn’t tell you….

They didn’t give any reports of anything unusual. They were part of the reception. Neither one of them came up to say, “hey I’m getting a report” or “I’m hearing x, y or z.”

Wasn’t it happening in front of them? Weren’t you there, too? Couldn’t you just see it? Who needs a report if you’re there in the middle of it? Why do you need a report when you can see it with your own eyes?

I did not see any of that happening. And there were other people who were there and their reports were they didn’t see people in the duty section drinking. You should have some of those reports, too.

What is it you didn’t see happening?

I did not see anyone who was unauthorized consuming alcohol. I did not see anyone who was not supposed to be there, on the flight deck during the reception.

If that’s the case, how do we get to the situation in the mess deck where sailors are showing up to fight the fire and they’re being sidelined because they are too intoxicated to get their gear on? How did it go from this not happening to people showing up drunk in the mess decks?

This is what I don’t understand because that should have been reported. If that’s the case why wasn’t it reported? There’s an engineering duty officer, there’s a command duty officer, there’s a master-at-arms, there’s a medical guy. Why didn’t anybody report that? Did they report it to the XO? Did they report it to the CMC? Did they report it to the section leader? In none of those reports does it say anything like that except, except in the report you have.

So in other words, you didn’t know about this because no one told you?

Exactly. I didn’t know there was anything wrong until in January when the officer that was looking into the [main reduction gear casualty] came and told me there was an issue with the reception. I told him, “hey, we have authorization to do the reception. We had funding. We submitted our funding stuff, etc, etc.” And then later all that came out. And I am like “where in the heck did this come from?” How can you have an XO, CMC, CDO, EDO, MA and none of this stuff gets reported?

You didn’t know about this at all at the time?

Not at all. That’s what I am telling you.

The sailor going down the passageway with a beer, when did you find out about that?

I found out the same way you did, in the report. If someone saw that, they were obligated to take that beer, take that person and send it up through the chain of command so that person could be dealt with.

Is this the first alcohol-related incident on the Halsey in your command or were there previous incidents?

We had a previous incident where a first-class petty officer was going through berthing doing a berthing inspection for the berthing he owned, he was the POIC and he saw a sailor with a beer. He reported that to the CDO and the report went up and the sailor was written up and sailor went to captain’s mast.

When was that?

This was in Kagoshima.

That night?

No this happened a couple of nights later.

Did they say where the beer came from? Was it left over from the reception?

He brought it from out in town.

There were several officers who made statements that you were encouraging them to drink even though they were on duty. There’s a quote from an officer who said she was holding a beer just to placate you. What do you make of that?

That was the … officer. When you look at all those statements all those lines you pulled and you wrote in your article basically came from one person.

No. Not really. There was another officer was in his cabin and heard loud music, went out to the flight deck and saw the speakers on top of the VLS tubes?

That’s where the speakers were for the whole reception.

Are you saying it was just one person who said that? Not more than one?

What [the officer] said is true. And I verify that. But what I don’t see in your writings was the statements by others who said they didn’t see duty section people drinking. What I don’t see in your write-ups is who the people were that they said were drinking or smelled alcohol on them. Actually the way you write it is these people were drunk, like they couldn’t function. Who were these people? Also what I didn’t see is what documents show you that this stuff happened that I should have seen.

You mean the reports that the duty officers were supposed to turn over to you?

Exactly.

But you were there. Why do you need a report for someone to tell you?

I wasn’t there. I wasn’t on the mess decks where people gathered for the fire. When they rung for the fire they only rung that on enlisted circuits. They did not ring that throughout the ship. I live in officers’ country. I did not hear any bells. The first time I heard something was going on is when I got a phone call from the XO. So I’m not there on the mess decks. I am not there seeing all this.

That’s not consistent with one of the statements that says you were on the flight deck when the bells sounded and sailor took off running to respond to the fire and to the point where he remembers you telling him not to run. He’s putting you on the flight deck when the bells sounded, you heard the bells and you must have seen this guy take off running because you told him not to run. Is that true?

That is not true. If I had to walk from the flight deck on a Flight IIA, up to officers’ country where my cabin is, you have to go past the mess decks. You have you go past the mess line and you have to go by the engine room. If I am already walking by there everybody would have saw me. Who saw me there?

You said the first time you found out about the fire is when you got a phone call from the XO in your cabin? You had already retired for the night?

Yes.

What did the XO tell you?

He told me they had smoke, that the space was electrically isolated, they had damage to the humidifier, they had minor damage to the MRG, there were no personnel casualties and the equipment was stowed. He went through a litany of stuff.

My thing was “OK, great. Let’s close the place up. Let people get some rest and we’ll go in there first thing in the morning.”

Again you say the first time you heard about it was the call from the XO but in one of the statements, an officer down in the control room saying you actually came over the communications and told this officer not to use the 1MC in dealing with the fire, so you must have been able to hear something.

I can’t dial up the 1MC in my cabin.

Did you call down there and tell them not to use the 1MC?

That’s a negative. You must be talking about another casualty or something because we always use the 1MC when there’s a casualty. I wouldn’t tell someone not to use the 1MC. That’s how we communicate when there’s a casualty.

A person who identifies themselves as a CDO and this is the statement “I made the 1MC announcement and I remember specifically saying the duty section was not to consume alcohol,” etc. This person goes up to the flight deck and you are up there. And the fire starts and this persons says, “I turned over control to [another officer] and at one point during turning over the CO called and told me to quit using the 1MC and I informed of the situation with the dehumidifier and the heat rising reports.” So this person is calling back. You must have heard something because you called down there and told them not to use the 1MC. Is this person lying?

I am not going to call anybody a liar. I do not remember that. I know the XO called and we discussed what was going on, but I am not going to call someone a liar.

Well it doesn’t match with you are telling me. You are saying one thing and this person says another.

I am saying the first time I heard what was going on is when the XO called me.

Then what did you do?

I told the XO what I wanted to do and that was it.

Why did you stay in your stateroom?

I never go to the scene of a casualty. That’s why we have all these people who are trained. I let them do their job, I get the report, then I act.

Everyone else is reacting and going to the mess deck. Why not go to the mess deck?

That’s the fire party. That’s what the duty section is trained to do. They get dressed out and they go from there.

You were responsible for the ship. Someone tells you there’s smoke in the main space and you stay put. Why didn’t you get involved?

Because they said the fire was out.

When they first told you there was a fire in the main space what did you do?

When I got the word it was already a done deal. It wasn’t like they were fighting something for 15 or 20 minutes. They secured power and boom this thing is out. It wasn’t like 10 to 15 minutes like someone calls up and says “I got white smoke and I’m fighting the fire,” and I say “Yeah OK call me back later” and he calls me back later and says “yes, the fire is out.” This was all one report.

Here’s another, I think it’s the same person trying to get approval from you. “I knocked repeatedly on his stateroom door and got no response. I attempted to call the CO from the operation officer’s stateroom, the wardroom and got no success. Then notified XO and CHENG, both of whom were standing outside the CO’s door with the CDO that I could not get in touch with the CO. Tried to call again. This time the CO answered his phone. I told him I had a message for his review and release. He told me no reports were to leave the ship until the next day.” Why didn’t you just come out and talk to your guys? This person was obviously frustrated in their attempts to get hold of you. You were only feet away. Inside your room.

Yes and if he wanted, all he needed to do was open the door. You don’t understand how many reports you get. But I got this report, I got it from the XO and I was comfortable with the situation. We had talked about it. I said “Hey OK, we’ll look at everything and we’ll send out our reports in the morning. And then we’ll be fine.”

Folks who have read the report or heard the story think one of two things could be a reason you didn’t come out of your cabin. One, you had been drinking. And you didn’t want to come out of your room. Is that true?

I had been drinking but not to excess.

So that isn’t what kept you in your room?

My door, the CDO has a key and the supply officer has a key to my stateroom. I never lock my stateroom. Even when we’re in port.

If that was the situation, and I think you told me yesterday you have an “open-door policy” why didn’t they just come into your cabin?

I don’t know.

If they are trying to get hold of you and they’re knocking on your door and they are calling you, why didn’t you just get up and open the door and say “what’s going on guys?”

I didn’t hear anybody knocking. In a DDG Flight II cabin you have one outer door that leads to the hallway and then you have an office then you have another door that leads to the bedroom section then you have another door that leads to the head. If you are knocking on the outer door, you’re not going to hear it in the bedroom.

So you didn’t come out because you couldn’t hear them?

I never heard anybody knocking.

But weren’t they trying to call you on your phone too?

I talked to them on the phone. I talked to the XO twice.

I asked you this yesterday too. Were you alone in your room?

Yes! I was alone in my room.

No one else was in there?

If I tell you I am alone, I’m alone.

Again, folks who hear the story or read the report, they’ll think either he didn’t come out because he’d been drinking too much or he was with somebody. That’s just human nature. It doesn’t really have anything to do with the Navy. If you weren’t alone, maybe that would be a reason. But you are stating that you were definitely alone in there. Right?

I was alone. I don’t know how to say this but you have guys trained, they tell you the situation is secure, you say “OK we’ll send out our reports,” reports were sent out and that’s it.

It just seems that a fire on your own ship would be worthy of your attention. And from several of the accounts they were having a hard time getting your attention. That’s the part that’s not adding up.

I disagree with that. I have an XO who has a strong engineering background, an ex-PEB guy and I trust his judgment. When the guy tells me the space is secure, the equipment is stowed, no personnel casualties etc., etc., I trust that judgment.

So now it’s the next day and this is from the summary from commander, destroyer squadron 1, “a draft message detailing the fire and casualty including a description of the apparent Class B flashover fire that occurred in the MRG was recommended to the CO by the XO, CHENG and AOPS. The CO directed that no SITREP be sent until the following morning. The SITREP sent on 3 Nov 2006, mention of the MRG was specifically excluded by the CO. No further SITREPS or casualty reports regarding the MRG were sent.”

Why?

That’s not true.

That’s not true?

I sent a message to Desron 21 and the CHENG and I were there. That same message that was sent to Desron 21 was the same thing that was supposed to be sent to the Kitty Hawk.

OK? I’m confused. This says reports with anything to do with the MRG fire didn’t happen. And you’re saying you did notify your chain of command?

I gave Desron 21, the CHENG and I sat in my cabin, we went over the verbiage and we shot that off.

And the verbiage included a fire in the MRG?

Yes.

So this is incorrect information here?

What I am saying is that’s not the full story.

OK. What is the full story?

I just told you. The CHENG and I sat there on the computer and we sent off that e-mail. And I got a reply back. I directed that the same verbiage be used for the Kitty Hawk … to Desron 15.

What did the report you sent say?

It said we had a fire in the dehumidifier, a flashover in the MRG and that we’re investigating and we’ll send a further report.

And did you send a further report?

Yes. We found the MRG was fine, we replaced some gaskets, we removed the dehumidifier … and we sent a CASREP.

But this is exactly what the chain of command says you didn’t do.

What I am saying is all this came out when I went to go see SurfPac. You have a preliminary report. You wrote your story based on some of the stuff that was gathered. And that’s my frustration. When I went over to see SurfPac all these things were presented.

Do you believe there’s a connection between the first fire and the second fire?

There is not a connection between the first fire and the second fire except for one key piece of equipment which is the dehumidifier. After Kagoshima we operated from November until Dec. 24, then we went cold iron, in port on shore power. The second MRG fire did not happen until we got a new dehumidifier and that dehumidifier was installed. Within a day or two, that’s when we had that MRG explosion.

So you’re saying you fully reported the first incident in the MRG in Kagoshima?

My fault is for delaying the report. I delayed the report. And I also should have made sure that what I wanted to go across to the strike group went across to the strike group. I’m working for dual people. I reported to my desron in San Diego about the dehumidifier and the MRG that we had a flashover in the MRG … you made it seem like we said let’s forget about it and be on our way.

The ship operated in the Sea of Japan, went to Hawaii went to San Diego went cold iron and operated fine. We put in a new dehumidifier and then a day or so later, we have this happen. So you tell me.

Then why were you relieved of command?

When I got there with [Naval Surface Forces commander Vice Adm. Terrance] Etnyre, issues that came up with the reception, issues that came up with the reporting, he said he just lost confidence. And I serve at his pleasure.

The reception is one thing. What was wrong with the reporting? You said you made the report, you just delayed it. They had a problem with you delaying the report or as the summary says, there was no mention of the MRG was contained in the report.

No, that’s your preliminary inquiry that said that … if you call and ask to see were there any communication between the CO and the desron commander about a fire in the MRG you will get that. I don’t know if they’d give you that, but that was done. And the chief engineer was there.

So do you feel you should not have been relieved? Do you feel you should still be commander of the Halsey?

I have my own feelings about that. But I am a professional and once a decision is made I’ll roger up. I am not going to go back and say “I was wronged in this. I was wronged in that.” All I want is the true story written.

Let me ask you this if someone says there were drunken sailors, did the report mention any drunken sailors, did the report sailor X was identified to be inebriated and could not conduct his business because he drank on duty.

Yes. It says on page 2 of the summary, “members of the in-port emergency team …”

Members. I am saying who? Who?

No one is identified in this report because of the rules on privacy.

No. You identified me. You identified people by position.

Let me finish that, it says they were “noticeably under the influence of alcohol,” which is another way of saying they were drunk, and another part says “the security alert team was not issued weapons because of the circumstances surrounding post-reception alcohol consumption by security force members.” That also says there were people on duty who were drinking. If they were the security force they weren’t off-duty.

I understand that.

So they are not names but it says sailors on-duty were drinking. That’s what this says.

My point is if those sailors were on duty and they were drinking, and the CDO even passed the word that the duty section was not to partake, why wasn’t that information passed up? And why did all this information all of sudden come up after we get back from deployment?

Are you saying it was their fault they didn’t tell you what was going on on your ship?

I am saying who was ever in the duty section, the section leader, the CDO, should have issued a report up the chain of command that’s what should have happened. They should have said “sailor x, sailor y, sailor z, could not perform dah dah dah dah dah dah,” and then it should have been handled.

When did you first find out that sailors were intoxicated?

I first found out in January when I got a package from SurFor and during the investigation.

When you got this package were you blindsided?

I was not expecting that. SurFor called the XO of the ship and said they wanted to talk with me. They had called us previous to set up some meetings on the way ahead on the MRG.

So I am thinking we are going over to talk about the MRG and then wham I am hit with this. And I am thinking, where is this coming from? Who was drunk? Who was inebriated? Why weren’t these reports sent up? Why wasn’t I notified?

But you even said yourself that you were drinking that night so you know at least that you were. You were also out on the flight deck with your sailors so you know they were also.

Yes sir. I am talking about people they said were in the duty section. The CDO came over the 1MC and said the duty section is not allowed to drink.

That obviously was not followed according to the summary report, written by a captain.

Exactly. Then I say “Why weren’t those people identified. Why wasn’t a report sent up?”

Say that did happen. Say these officers who were responsible for reporting all this stuff back to you. Say they did write the reports. What difference would it make?

It makes a huge difference. Then I can address the issues. I can’t address the issues I don’t know about. That’s just like you writing the story. You write the story based on a few items you have. If you had all the information you would have wrote it differently.

There’s a fair amount of information in the report. And you are contradicting a lot of it. You are saying there are huge sections of this report from multiple people is incorrect and the conclusions from the desron are incorrect.

I can’t say his conclusions are incorrect … I can say “did he talk to everybody? Did he identify the people who said they were on duty that were drinking? And once you identify those people, where do those people say they got the alcohol from?” I mean we knew there was some alcohol on board but who gave them that alcohol who wasn’t supposed to give them that alcohol? All of that was glossed over. And basically it says “hey, let’s go to the top, whack right there, OK everything else is fine and then we move on.”

Was there a point where sailors understood that if they volunteered to work the reception, that once the Japanese folks left they’d be able to have the leftovers? They’d be allowed to drink?

Yes, the people working the reception who are not on duty.

So somehow, somewhere, someone in your chain of command was providing alcohol to people and should not have been.

Exactly.

You don’t know who that was?

I don’t know who that was but it was my question in the investigation.

Do you feel you got a fair shake?

That’s not important. I’m a professional. A decision was made and I am moving on. What I am trying to say is the report should have went deeper. And I am surprised no one has asked the question why didn’t it go deeper? You’re writing about these drunken sailors and stuff like that, who are they? How did they get this alcohol? Where did the breakdown occur?

At least one sailor says you brought sake out of your cabin and opened it out for the guys on the flight deck.

Right but that was for people who were part of the reception that were authorized. That wasn’t to say “hey sailor x, sailor y, come have some sake.”

If I was Monday morning quarterbacking, hey, there’s a million things I would do differently. But there’s nothing I did that I feel bad about like I put somebody in danger or anything like that.

Did you ask to make a statement?

I never asked to make a statement, I never was requested to make a statement because I never thought I was the center of a probe or anything.

What did you think was going on?

I thought there were some people who were drinking who shouldn’t have been drinking and some accusations were made and we were trying to get to the bottom of it. And it turned out that it turned into a thing like “Cmdr. Pinckney is having a big party on the flight deck everybody come and grab a beer,” and that was not the case. People need to understand how this thing was structured. It was a structured event. It was very structured.

Right. It was a structured event up until the point someone in your chain of command didn’t obey that and people were drinking who weren’t supposed to drink. It can be as structured as you want but it didn’t hold up.

Sir, you are absolutely right. And when those people found that, they should have reported it up.

The worst thing that could ever happen to anybody that’s in command is to lose command.

Or have someone get hurt.

Or have someone get hurt, you know, etc. So that’s a pain, that’s a burden I will carry forever. Your story, the article, given time, will fade.

Discuss: Ex-Halsey CO fires back